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Best President ever?

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Pinnacle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pinnacle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best President ever?
    Posted: 05 May 2010 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Fluffy Fluffington

Zellot youre just plain wrong:
 
1. Clinton gave us the internet bubble, and when that burst leading to a recession Bush inherited the recession from Clinton. the recession went deeper after the 9/11 attacks, and bush's tax cuts got us out of that. The roots of the housing bubble go way way back and many presidents/administrations need to take blame as far back as carter but certainly bush 1 and 2 and clinton.
 
2. We had to bail out the ENTIRE Savings and Loan Industry in 1992. Historical FACT.
    Savings and Loans were just like banks back in the day, and we bailed ot the entire industry.
 
3. During Clinton's Term the govt stepped in to bail out a HEDGE FUND called Long Term Capital.
    to say weve never bailed out a financial institution is just plain WRONG!
 
4. In 1982 (approx could be 83) the govt bailed out chrysler so theres even precedent for the auto industry.
 
Bush messed up IRAQ initially I do admit that, but he stood his ground on the surge and was proven right. The economy, as I said before, has its roots DEEP in our political history and, in my opinion, lies w/ Alan Greenspan who was appointed as chairman of the FED decades before BUSH II.
 
You're both wrong.
 
1. The internet bubble was a result of Reaganomics loosening the way companies were able to raise funding including the reduction of interest rates for credit. Clinton had a cheap ride on the bubble, but didn't have any part in it taking place. The rule of thumb is it take roughly 10 years for the act of an administration to take effect and show it's true worth. The math, along with the laws that were passed prove this point.
 
2. The savings and loans industry was bailed out, but the bailout was good and bad. It was bad because it killed off a segregated industry, but it was huge because it spurred the mergers and acquisitions that resulted. That produced more money for the government than anything else at the time.
 
3. Agree.
 
4. That was actually Chrysler's second bailout and last year's was the third. However, again, we ar falling to misconception by using the term "bailout". There are major differences between last years bailout and the previous bailout. Prior to last year, every bailout was premised as a loan gaurentee. That means that the corporation would obtain a loan gaurenteed by the government. That means that the private industry would loan to Chrysler and if they defaulted, then the government (tax payers) would pay for it. Last years bailout was truly unprecedented. It was neither a loan or a bailout. It was a PURCHASE! The government used taxpayer money to PURCHASE shares of a private corporation in exchange for a cash infusion equalling the value of the stock issued. THAT MEANS THE GOVERNMENT BECAME A MARKET PARTICIPANT IN THE EXCHANGE OF STOCK ON THE OPEN STOCK MARKET, which is illegal. The GM/Chrylser bailout was not a bailout. That word is fictitious and absurd. It was a purchase of stock, which is even more absurd, let alone ILLEGAL!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zellot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 6:57pm

check this out

Progress

President Clinton took office at a time of large deficits and high unemployment. The country was headed in the wrong direction after more than a decade of supply-side economics. President Clinton turned the country around by adopting progressive economic policies that focused on reducing the budget deficit, halting the widening gap between rich and poor, and spurring innovation and investment. By the end of his term, these progressive policies had yielded the longest sustained period of economic growth in American history and more than 23 million new jobs.

Regress

Despite the clear success of progressive policies in the 1990s, President Bush returned the country to the failed economic strategy of focusing on the very wealthy under the theory that their success would “trickle down” to everyone else. It didn’t work out that way. President Bush cut taxes repeatedly for high-income earners and on capital gains, with the promise that those cuts would result in impressive growth for everyone. The rich were doing very well after eight years of supply-side policies, but everyone else was falling back. Median incomes and wages were down, poverty was up, job growth was anemic, and unemployment was beginning to soar.

Check out the report.  As I've posted quite a bit on income inequality, this graphic really hit home:

Screen shot 2010-04-27 at 8.27.44 AM
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fluffy Fluffington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:06pm
Zellot  That outfit has no bias im sure LOL
 
Pinn the telecom act of 1996 was a clinton era piece of legislation, coupled w the free money policy of the fed and the misplaced fear of the Y2K bug led to the internet bubble.
 
Bubbles happen because of excess supply of money (FED policy) where that excess Money flows can be influenced by legislation (telecom act of 96) that piece of law went under serious revision during BUSH first term becasue it was so poorly crafted.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pinnacle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Zellot

check this out

Progress

President Clinton took office at a time of large deficits and high unemployment. The country was headed in the wrong direction after more than a decade of supply-side economics. President Clinton turned the country around by adopting progressive economic policies that focused on reducing the budget deficit, halting the widening gap between rich and poor, and spurring innovation and investment. By the end of his term, these progressive policies had yielded the longest sustained period of economic growth in American history and more than 23 million new jobs.

Regress

Despite the clear success of progressive policies in the 1990s, President Bush returned the country to the failed economic strategy of focusing on the very wealthy under the theory that their success would “trickle down” to everyone else. It didn’t work out that way. President Bush cut taxes repeatedly for high-income earners and on capital gains, with the promise that those cuts would result in impressive growth for everyone. The rich were doing very well after eight years of supply-side policies, but everyone else was falling back. Median incomes and wages were down, poverty was up, job growth was anemic, and unemployment was beginning to soar.

Check out the report.  As I've posted quite a bit on income inequality, this graphic really hit home:

Screen shot 2010-04-27 at 8.27.44 AM
 
 
Zellot, I see where you are getting this from. However, the article is contradictory and many accounts.
 
1. Budget deficit reduction is a conservative agenda. Progressives love spending.
 
2. The gap between rich and poor continued to grow during Clinton's years. There was no decrease, and that was due to the raising of the minimum wage 3 times during his presidency leading to massive inflation.
 
3. Clinton's terms were not the longest sustained period of economic growth. It was the years during the industrial revolution that had the longest growth.
 
4. Bush didn't use "trickle-down" economics, Clinton did. He made the term popular. Bush used common tax reduction methods. It was that simple. Reduction of income tax, capital gains tax, the death tax, etc.
 
5. Median incomes and wages were not down during Bush's years, the dollar was. That was due to the Euro, the massive inflation that resulted from minimum wage increase, the falling of the yen, etc.
 
Lastly, pulling spun information from a progressive website is obviously not going shed the true light on the situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pinnacle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Fluffy Fluffington

Zellot  That outfit has no bias im sure LOL
 
Pinn the telecom act of 1996 was a clinton era piece of legislation, coupled w the free money policy of the fed and the misplaced fear of the Y2K bug led to the internet bubble.
 
Bubbles happen because of excess supply of money (FED policy) where that excess Money flows can be influenced by legislation (telecom act of 96) that piece of law went under serious revision during BUSH first term becasue it was so poorly crafted.
 
 
 
 
Fluff, partly true, but a part of that is debateable. The part I would contest is the premise that the bubble started after Y2K. The credit market and the alienability of money were what I believe caused the bubble. Based on the surplus theory, the bubble didn't start until the year 2000? I'd contest that it started around 1992-1994, ending in 2002.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Pinnacle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:17pm
Where is Ether Bunny with his MBA insight?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote SRC_Lock123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:20pm
Not to interrupt the interesting Bush v Clinton war but I think William Henry Harrison is the best only because he got shafted badly my fate.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fluffy Fluffington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:22pm
The excessive valuations of technology stocks (internet bubble) started circa 97/98 and burts in 2000.
 
The housing Bubble began circa 2005 and burst in 2008.
 
the primary cause of both was exess supply of cheap money. (the cost of money is interest rates and during both priods interst rates were absurdly low by any historic measure) whenever theris an excess of anything things get sloppy.
 
I dont know where you got that I said the bubble started in 2000 you should re read my post. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ether404 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by Pinnacle

Where is Ether Bunny with his MBA insight?

my insight would be a bit skewed considering i was 8 in 1993 when Clinton was inaugurated.  so my knowledge of this is not as up to date as you old folks.   right now my focus is on Citigroup and trying to determine when to repurchase the stock.  i purchased at $4.98, sold at $4.76 when i got wind that the Fed was selling back the shares.  it's now at $4.18, on the decline for the past 4 days.  

sorry but i do like your debates and i am looking up the history to clarify all this info.  this intrigues me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HanFei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Pinnacle

Where is Ether Bunny with his MBA insight?

Hahahaha
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Helscream Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 10:26pm
Sorry to break it to yall, but the last President that actually gave a damn about morales was JFK. He didn't follow the agenda, and they killed him. Hell, do you really think Abraham Lincoln was assassinated by a group of confederate sympathizer's? The rabbit Hole runs much deeper than you think.

Ever Heard of

William (Bill) Cooper
David Icke
Jordan Maxwell
Micheal Tsarion
Ted Gunderson
Mike Heiser
David E. Flynn
Joe Jordan


I mean the list goes on and on, but damnit all different kind of men. From different walks of life all agree on one thing. There is a secret Agenda out there. And someone or something is pulling the strings. Im not saying that anything these men lecture about are absolute truths. But do some research for yourself. And make of it what you will.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ether404 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2010 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by Helscream

Sorry to break it to yall, but the last President that actually gave a damn about morales was JFK. He didn't follow the agenda, and they killed him. Hell, do you really think Abraham Lincoln was assassinated by a group of confederate sympathizer's? The rabbit Hole runs much deeper than you think.

Ever Heard of

William (Bill) Cooper
David Icke
Jordan Maxwell
Micheal Tsarion
Ted Gunderson
Mike Heiser
David E. Flynn
Joe Jordan


I mean the list goes on and on, but damnit all different kind of men. From different walks of life all agree on one thing. There is a secret Agenda out there. And someone or something is pulling the strings. Im not saying that anything these men lecture about are absolute truths. But do some research for yourself. And make of it what you will.

sort of like...the Patriots from Metal Gear?  i'm not trying to be an ass, i'm just trying to understand your point of view.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oXxLunacyxXo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 5:23am
clintons the man shouldnt got a bj from fat chick though shouldve been better lookn
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HanFei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 11:17am
Originally posted by Helscream

...all different kind of men from different walks of life all agree on one thing, there is a secret agenda out there; someone or something is pulling the strings.

Accuracy of data is more important than consensus.
If everyone in a room were to believe a red chair (560nm) is green chair (530nm), clearly the chair is still red... There doesn't even have to be a dissenting opinion for the chair to be red.

While it is more practical to consider a rouge agent to carry out these acts, such a stance is poor at best.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Zellot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by HanFei

Originally posted by Helscream

...all different kind of men from different walks of life all agree on one thing, there is a secret agenda out there; someone or something is pulling the strings.

Accuracy of data is more important than consensus.
If everyone in a room were to believe a red chair (560nm) is green chair (530nm), clearly the chair is still red... There doesn't even have to be a dissenting opinion for the chair to be red.

While it is more practical to consider a rouge agent to carry out these acts, such a stance is poor at best.
another example is how a red cabbage isn't red it's purple,  but yet we still call it red  cause someone out there decided it was so. and the same thing goes for a  red onion
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Helscream Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by HanFei

Originally posted by Helscream

...all different kind of men from different walks of life all agree on one thing, there is a secret agenda out there; someone or something is pulling the strings.

Accuracy of data is more important than consensus.
If everyone in a room were to believe a red chair (560nm) is green chair (530nm), clearly the chair is still red... There doesn't even have to be a dissenting opinion for the chair to be red.

While it is more practical to consider a rouge agent to carry out these acts, such a stance is poor at best.


Evidently you didn't get what I meant. Kinda like when you have a football game? Or possibly a xbox fanboy review a ps3 game or vice versa. Would you rather receive data from multiple sources and make of it what you will? Kinda like if football team A commits a foul, and Team B says hey ''number 50 was holding on offense''. Your not going to believe the opposing team simply because of bias opinions. Even if they are right. Because they are all people from the same side. Thats why you need a neutral person as the referee to judge what has happened base on the data he received.  But I suppose you would rather have data, that was tangible. Even if it was complete bull****.

I don't need a lecture on perception.

Tell me, will it be simply based on perception and opinions when you are striped of all your liberties, rights, and freedoms as a human being. And you are referred to nothing more than cattle? You refused to acknowledge the existence of such a possibility until it starring you right in the face like a gun being held pointblank at your head.

Your kind is educated beyond your own intellect. You are taught how to think, not you use your mind in any manner you wish.

By what difference does it make, im exhausted of explaining this to people. Ill just play the role of the insane guy who has got it all wrong, and you can play the educated man who knows the answers. Im sure that will help you sleep at night. I'm out.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nova Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 8:07pm
Actually alot of you don't pay attention.  The presidents aren't the ones that messed up the economy, its the people who keep spending what they DON'T have, which is very very hard to fix.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HanFei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 9:18pm
Aaronovitch says conspiracy theories are fashionable across the globe. And while the one your neighbor insists upon — that the fluoride in the drinking water is actually a mind-control experiment by the government — might be a harmless variation, some have serious consequences.

"If you are to travel in Pakistan, for instance, you will find that a significant proportion of the educated Pakistanis believe that George Bush brought down the twin towers," says Aaronovitch. "And that makes dealing with the [Pakistani] Taliban difficult because they actually don't believe the fundamental premise on which the war against terror was waged."
http://www.npr.org/tablet/#story/?storyId=123127032
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fluffy Fluffington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 11:54pm
great point HAN, I read a great book called the "The Hidden Hand. Middle Eastern Fears of Conspiracy"
 
The thesis of the book is that Middle Eastern Culture is infected by all forms of conspiracy theories as well as theorists masquerading as intellectuals. Furthermore, it talks about how the ruling dictatorships of these countries encourage them, because it keeps the popoulation placated and submissive.
 
If they believe they are powerless and everything happens beyond ther control, behind the curtains, by shadowy sinister external powers, why rise up against the yoke of oppression at home.
 
I find conspiracy theories intellectually offensive, for the most part.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Deadaim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 8:00am
Originally posted by Helscream

Sorry to break it to yall, but the last President that actually gave a damn about morales was JFK. He didn't follow the agenda, and they killed him. Hell, do you really think Abraham Lincoln was assassinated by a group of confederate sympathizer's? The rabbit Hole runs much deeper than you think.

Ever Heard of

William (Bill) Cooper
David Icke
Jordan Maxwell
Micheal Tsarion
Ted Gunderson
Mike Heiser
David E. Flynn
Joe Jordan


I mean the list goes on and on, but damnit all different kind of men. From different walks of life all agree on one thing. There is a secret Agenda out there. And someone or something is pulling the strings. Im not saying that anything these men lecture about are absolute truths. But do some research for yourself. And make of it what you will.
 
were they all male models?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Deadaim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 8:04am
Originally posted by Nova

Actually alot of you don't pay attention.  The presidents aren't the ones that messed up the economy, its the people who keep spending what they DON'T have, which is very very hard to fix.
 
isnt our president spending trillions of dollars that we dont have?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HanFei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 9:34am
Originally posted by Deadaim

Originally posted by Nova

Actually alot of you don't pay attention.  The presidents aren't the ones that messed up the economy, its the people who keep spending what they DON'T have, which is very very hard to fix.


<FONT style=": #000000"> 

<FONT style=": #000000">isnt our president spending trillions of dollars that we dont have?

While he approves legislation and encourages some of it written, most of the spending is done by the senate and congress, after which Obama generally approves.

We have two major problems:
Lack of US saving - "neat national savings rate plunged to a record low of 1 peercent of nation income over 2004-2006" p.332 Roach, The Next Asia

Because of this, our huge desire to consume and large federal deficits - "the US needs about 3.5 billion of foreign capital each business day to fund it's external shortfall" (870 billion annually, as of 2006) p.345 Roach, The Next Asia

As an aside, the hugely popular medicare part d that passed during the last administration placed ~43 billion on the government's tab, a tab that through the daily sale of treasury bonds is paid 40% by foreign accounts...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Deadaim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 10:00am
Originally posted by HanFei

Originally posted by Deadaim

Originally posted by Nova

Actually alot of you don't pay attention.  The presidents aren't the ones that messed up the economy, its the people who keep spending what they DON'T have, which is very very hard to fix.


<FONT style=": #000000"> 

<FONT style=": #000000">isnt our president spending trillions of dollars that we dont have?

While he approves legislation and encourages some of it written, most of the spending is done by the senate and congress, after which Obama generally approves.

We have two major problems:
Lack of US saving - "neat national savings rate plunged to a record low of 1 peercent of nation income over 2004-2006" p.332 Roach, The Next Asia

Because of this, our huge desire to consume and large federal deficits - "the US needs about 3.5 billion of foreign capital each business day to fund it's external shortfall" (870 billion annually, as of 2006) p.345 Roach, The Next Asia

As an aside, the hugely popular medicare part d that passed during the last administration placed ~43 billion on the government's tab, a tab that through the daily sale of treasury bonds is paid 40% by foreign accounts...
 
yes he definetly encourages it, and goes out of his way to make sure he doesnt even need a super majority vote to get it passed. pretty much their isnt any checks and balances right now
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fluffy Fluffington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 10:32am
Originally posted by HanFei

Originally posted by Deadaim

Originally posted by Nova

Actually alot of you don't pay attention.  The presidents aren't the ones that messed up the economy, its the people who keep spending what they DON'T have, which is very very hard to fix.


<FONT style=": #000000"> 

<FONT style=": #000000">isnt our president spending trillions of dollars that we dont have?

While he approves legislation and encourages some of it written, most of the spending is done by the senate and congress, after which Obama generally approves.

We have two major problems:
Lack of US saving - "neat national savings rate plunged to a record low of 1 peercent of nation income over 2004-2006" p.332 Roach, The Next Asia

Because of this, our huge desire to consume and large federal deficits - "the US needs about 3.5 billion of foreign capital each business day to fund it's external shortfall" (870 billion annually, as of 2006) p.345 Roach, The Next Asia

As an aside, the hugely popular medicare part d that passed during the last administration placed ~43 billion on the government's tab, a tab that through the daily sale of treasury bonds is paid 40% by foreign accounts...
 
Wht the hell does the governments overspending have to do the personal savings rate???
The average american does like to spend but that does not mean our government has to!
 
the greek government liked to sopend a lot look what happened there
 
just becasue the american consumer spends a lot on their credit cards it doesnt affect of budget deficit or national debt
 
youre really copfusing your terminology and concepts
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HanFei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:47pm
^Since less funds are available I the US to purchase treasury bonds, increasingly these instruments are being purchased by foreign savers and account surpluses like Japan, Arab states, Switzerland and China. Interest, totaling ~9% of federal budget is in part and inreasingly sent abroad, instead of within the US. (Sry, I'm a little protectionist...)

http://electriccityweblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/800px-fy2008spendingbycategory1.png
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