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The problem of evil |
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TX2k7 
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 Topic: The problem of evilPosted: 14 Oct 2011 at 7:41pm |
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so im going to be writing a research paper discussing the problem of evil and thought itd be interesting to see what kind of response this would get here. (note im going to provide only one side of the argument here so as to allow room for rebuttal and feedback...
For centuries, the problem of the existence of evil has been regarded as the most potent rational objection to theistic belief. two main arguments held are that of the "Logical Problem of Evil" and the"Evidential Problem of Evil" The logical problem: "On one hand hand, the theist affirms that (1) an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good God exists; on the other hand, he affirms that (2) evil exists in the world" (J.L. Mackie). Supposing the 2 statements are logically iconsistent, then it is irrational to believe both. The evidential problem: theists and nontheists both typically agree that God would prevent or eliminate the existence of any pointless or meaningless evil. however a problem arises as such evil does appear to exist. so heres the |
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TX2k7
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 7:47pm |
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premise:
1) There exists instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse. 2) An omnipotent, wholly good being would prevent the occurence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse. Conclusion: there does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being so here you have two different arguments attempting to show the inconsistency with belief in such a being existing. i look forward to a good rebuttal :) and no this does not hold my personal view, i am providing only one side of the argument for discussions sake |
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Aquaknot
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Wheres my sock?! Joined: 22 Feb 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 778 |
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 8:30pm |
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Observing the world around me, I see a near perfect habitat for life. I also see the incredible evil that mankind is capable of. "Omniscient" is the capability to know all things infinitely. This is where the Alpha and Omega comes from in the Bible. From the Jewish and Christian (many flavors) perspective, I struggle with the concept of creating mankind with the foreknowledge of the absolute horrors we woud commit against each other. It defies logic to create a perfect garden (habitat) and then allow someone you already had a problem with come in and spoil it, especially when you supposedly already knew the outcome. Argument 1: Get ready for "God moves in mysterious ways" responses. Argument 2: Difficult to reconcile "wholly good" against the hebrew and christian bibles. Jealous, vengeful, angry, etc. are used many times to describe God. I too will be interested in how this thread develops. |
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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TX2k7
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 8:53pm |
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"God moves in mysterious ways" is a cop out, and ya im hoping not to encounter it here, while it is true we cannot FULLY understand such a God, we can gain at least some understanding of God thru logic and reason.
and yes it can hard to reconcile the 2 but ill wait for some more responses before supposing more about God's nature |
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YINYANG
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 8:54pm |
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There are so many variables to your arguement; my suggestion is look at peer reviewed articles on this subject first, This way you see experts opinions on the subject, what this will do is help you compare your points to someone who is an expert in the field, if you are in college there should be a database via online through your school. This will show you have done the research and make your arguements more valid.
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YINYANG
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 8:57pm |
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Also Tx I need you to run my IP Address , and let me know my location, ive been bouncing of Ottawa Canada when it should be downtown Toronto, let me know if you can do this tonight , because I will be at my cousins house tommorow and sunday
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TX2k7
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 8:58pm |
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no no yangin u misunderstand, im not using this thread as subject matter, and the points are not my own, these points have been made by experts and are actual key arguments when it comes to philosophy and religion. i merely brought this discussion here to see how it would turn out. i do not plan on using this as a resource, as u said, i hv expert material at my disposal
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YINYANG
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 9:00pm |
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Well if you are using APA or chicago style you need to cite those correctly im sure. good luck dude!
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TX2k7
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 9:02pm |
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yes i know lol when im workn on my paper i do citations correctly, anyway back to the discussion.....
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YINYANG
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Posted: 14 Oct 2011 at 9:12pm |
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If you break it down to it all comes down to scientific proof, and blind faith, you believe becasue it gives you hope that the world has a silver lining, in reality we are all out there for ourselves, We create evil because we put our needs first as individuals, there is no divine intervention for war, only peace treaties brought on by man, diseases occur frequently and man himself must find the cure, we survive so we can consume more.
A greater power, makes the burden of daily life easier, when there is no one to turn to there is god, when you feel sad or seek guidance the easiest thing to do is pray to whomever you believe in. Think about it, if you had a personal problem who better to confide in then a being that cannot be seen or heard. It allows you to get things off your chest and relieve some of the burden or pain you feel. Evil presents itself when you have nothing *GOOD* left to believe in, whether it be god or yourself as an individual, Also the term necessary evil plays a role in many peoples lives. Sometimes you have to be bad for the greater good. |
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Aquaknot
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 4:08am |
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Consider that apparently mankind is the only sentient being on the planet. Complete with long and short term memory, emotions, a conscience and a persistant curiosity. It seems to me that the combination of these traits woud automatically force the creation of one or more deities. We use these deities to fill in the gaps in our understanding and to assign fault or explain mysteries that have no other apparent answer. It is impossible to prove a negative. That means you can't prove something doesn't exist. It occurs to me that an omnipotent and omniscient being would not be bound by what we may consider to be "wholly good", or what we may decide is right or wrong. This entity would be free to function in any manner it sees fit with regard to manipulating the outcome of any given circumstance. Evil for the greater good = Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Someone decided that it was better to drop nukes on the civilian population of our enemy than to risk another 250k military men. It worked and many lives were saved, but at a terrible price. I make no judgement here, but use this as an example for me to try to understand "the needs of the many" in my own mind.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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TX2k7
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 4:31am |
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well aqua we are supposing that this being is omnipotent, omniscient, & omnibenevolent, as is held in western theology. now, in regards to right & wrong, i get what you are saying, our understanding of right/wrong might be limited where as God, being omniscient, is free of this, however, this would not relieve God of his responsibility to etake evil out of the equation, at the very least pointless evil.
evil for the greater good...i agree with you, however, one might argue where was the greater good in the holocaust or in Haiti after the earthquake, how can God allow this to happen? |
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Aquaknot
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 7:00am |
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evil for the greater good...
See, there's the conundrum. How can God allow this to happen? We attribute good and bad things that happen to a God or to Evil. I would suggest that sh1t just happens in nature. It's that "if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there, does it make a sound?" argument. Plate Tectonics or simple physics are not dependent on the presence of human or supreme beings. Of course; group psychology, the horrors of war and the dumbing down of the masses are entirely dependent on human presence and human nature. History, as short as it is, reveals that while a "person" is intelligent, "people" are dumb. Entire countries have been swayed by fear and anger. This led to some of the worst acts in human history. If we're going to assume that there is in fact a supreme, omnipotent being that created all things, then by applying logic, we must also conclude that this entity created evil as well. I've heard extreme far right evangelicals claim that "an evil spirit is using that person to destroy you". Why can't that person be an asshole all on their own? The 24 hour news cycle is filled with atrocities we commit against each other and our children. As I get older, I struggle more and more with the concept of a supreme being. I certainly struggle with the concept of a benevolent supreme being. This is a matter I'm not settled with personally and suspect I never will be.
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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warfare
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 10:14am |
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Proving or Disproving the existence of God in terms that would satisfy your "logical" and "evidentiary" problems seems inherently false for the following reason: Those who ask the question (as your paper does), insist on couching their arguments in scientific or even mathematical terms. They use words such as logic, evidence, and rational to discuss a topic which is wholly emotional, intuitive, deeply personal and entirely subjective. Decidedly NOT a subject susceptible of being PROVEN in their science based terms.It seems to me, as unsatisfactory as it may be, one can only attempt to argue such a point by drawing comparisons to those things in our universe that likewise show a disposition towards opposites just as the God-Devil (evil) conundrum does. Our natural universe is apparently filled with opposing forces, balance, and symetry that are not clearly understood yet seem to exist: matter/antimatter, negative/positive charges, energy, dark energy, etc.
In this way, the supposed good/evil inconsistency is truly consistent with what we see in the natural universe.
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Do you realize that in about forty years, we'll have millions of old ladies running around with tatoos and pierced navels? O.o
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ax412
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 10:48am |
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If God were to oust evil. Then free will would be abolished.
Evil can only exist because of good.
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TX2k7
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 12:21pm |
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im liking these responses :)
gotta address these 1 at a time, so ill start with aqua: well supposing all we are and all that exists was created by God as is held by theists, then even in regards to natural evil, God either has a hand in creating it or allowing it. if God did create evil, this would suggest that he also has the power to destroy it. as an omnibenevolent being, he is bound to make the world as good as possible, this entails the prevention of evil that is not necessary to serve some greater good right? and yet such events take place anyway, however, phantaci brings up a good point, imo a very strong counter argument. why cant a person be an asshole all their own? that comes down to ur view on the matter of free will. |
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TX2k7
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 12:46pm |
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ok, warfare...
well the thing is you cannot prove/disprove God's existence with absolute certainty, the arguments/counter arguments really can only say, 'if this is the case, it is reasonable that this diety exists...or does not exist' yes the religious experience on the whole is very emotional, but to gain better insight & understanding of God and his nature through logic is not irrational. even theists from the beginning have used logical arguments to argue in favor of God and, in certain arguments, have done a damn good job at it too. u hold a very dualistic view, and what i took out of it was you feel evil exists separate of God? in such a case i would ask then, is God unable to destroy evil? would this not seem to suggest there are some things God cannot do? also, if evil exists outside of God, then he did not create everything? |
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TX2k7
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 12:56pm |
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phant....
you make a good point, and taking it one step further, we could say, if God were to destroy evil, it would be in violation of his omnibenevolent nature by no longer allowing us the freedom to choose, we are now all bound to do good by God's design. i ask you tho, if God truly is omniscient & omnipotent, existing outside of time & space (an eternal being) then he would see & know all events past, present and future all at once. if he knows all possible outcomes of what could/will happen...do we really have free will? |
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SIZZLE
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 1:01pm |
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simple answer - Pandora's box
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Aquaknot
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 3:27pm |
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I think that before you can debate the duties and responsibilities of God, one should first understand how God came to be. Only when armed with this knowledge would one understand the true nature of God and be better prepared to discuss his motives, actions or inaction. Then, we should determine who decided that God is
Who decided it is Gods responsibility for the good and bad in the world? Isn't it true that where each of us finds ourselves today is nothing more than the sum of the decisions we made along the way? Is that not free will? Omnipotent (all powerful) means that all things are possible for this entity. If you can imagine it, it can be done. Omniscient (all knowing) means God knew all things before they occurred. Benevolent means good and kind. Taken together, these attributes would seem to describe a perfect God that resulted in an imperfect creation. How is it possible for imperfection to come out of perfection? Did God miss something? Was this a lab experiment that went horribly wrong? Or, is it that in our own failings and innate desire to answer the question of "why?", we have created a one size fits all solution for ourselves? Creating something you know is doomed to fail, punishing your creation by killing them by the thousands when they fail (apparently on schedule), drowning them, burning them, killing their children, cutting them off from yourself and unleashing your worst enemy on them doesn't seem benevolent to me. Creating a final solution that involves becoming your own father, killing yourself and then offering redemption through telepathy to the dead son you created by sending your "spirit" in to a virgin simply makes no sense. Where is the benevolence in that? Where is the foresight? Where is the all powerful solution? I think we are looking for answers to questions we don't fully understand. Perhaps it is the premise of the question that is flawed? I just don't know. When our own knowledge and insight fails us, we look for someone or something to blame our troubles on. |
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 4:18pm |
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Aqua u stole my post (apart from the bitter rage after lol). TX this is a huge topic area m8 ultimately your asking if God exists? and if he does why does he allow evil (human suffering/cruelty) to exist too? Briefly my answer would be a combination of Aquas last post as in what is Gods position? Does he have full control or does he also play by the rules of the universe? In Phant's I will agree strongly that Gods gift to man is free will - choice. Obediance comes from fear, respect, subordinance but choice (to choose the path of God comes from love). I can think of several reasons to add to the free will argument but Warfare said something very worthwhile, you should research this for yourself. You have posed a humanistic question and attempting to answer it empirically (scientific evidence, what is observed and predicted etc) which means u cannot possibly give the God exists and God is Good a fair shake. Anecdotal evidence - eg my friend was devoutly religious but died an angonising death so God doesnt care, doesnt love us - is easy to find but hard to handle in an unbiased way.
PS u seem to be making assumptions about God and his agenda but I think your stirring the pot to see if anything interesting floats to the surface. But if I were in your shoes I would consider asking myself the question - what is the question that im attempting to answer.
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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TuNA FISh
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 5:10pm |
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i agree with most of what you said. here are my thoughts true "evil" doesn't exist. people doing "evil" is to better themselves in one way or another. having intelligence is the reason why we can distinguish what's right and what's wrong. also, you have to look at the environment. we learn right from wrong when we are toddlers so people born in the congo or thailand have a totally different version of what's right and what's wrong. that's when you get to lesser and greater evils. you have to rule out mental illnesses from this debate. even though society sees serial killers as being evil, they clearly have a mental illness that prevents them from functioning in society. religion was a way for our ancestors to agree on morals and to explain why we exist. you can say that the fear of death is what helped us evolve and ultimately create religion in the first place. religion was the first intelligent thing the human race did. if it wasn't for religion then morals wouldn't exist therefore villages, cities, and countries wouldn't have existed. religion isn't immune to "evil" and we can look at history as a reference.
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The sun was high and so was I
- Best Coast psn: HardhatTuna XBL: Tuna is QnL |
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ax412
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 6:06pm |
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Its a catch-22 God is sovereign and knows the beginning from the end, yet we have a free will. (he added the variables which would in a sense influence our decisions) yet we still choose. Its not something one can truly comprehend. |
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Ether404
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 6:29pm |
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then why does he torment?
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If Gravity is a "P" and the Sun is an "H", it makes a FFFFFFF.
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
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Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 7:17pm |
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the question is why do you think or are u sure he is the tormentor? He gave man free will - man chooses his own path. Why create us at all? if you accept God and the notion that he made us in his own image then it explains why we are individuals each equipped with the tools to shape their lives. @ Tuna Morals existed before formal religions as did spirituality, but yes religion especially monostheism represents a major shift in human development. Perhaps is more accurate to say religion gave morality more authority.
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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