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12 Dead @ Dark Knight Rises Premiere |
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Sephiroth_V7 
Team Deep 
qM's Cheerleader Joined: 14 Dec 2009 Location: SoDak Online Status: Offline Posts: 5105 |
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 Topic: 12 Dead @ Dark Knight Rises PremierePosted: 27 Jul 2012 at 8:52pm |
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Lol Jesus trin please don't be serious, I love you to much
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 aka - priebe69, DEEP_BrokeBack, GOW_AftaBirth |
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ax412
Team iAM
Duel Champ Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Cali Online Status: Offline Posts: 4833 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 8:58pm |
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America>
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Pinnacle
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Joined: 14 Dec 2008 Location: Dogtown, CA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2510 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 9:08pm |
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Trin, you've always level headed so my reply is not directed towards you, but rather to the misinformed of how the 2nd Amendment works. First, the Colorado shootings was an isolated incident. Again, the US has 300+ million people. The incidence of something of this nature is very rare per capita. I don't see people going crazy over suicide bombings that happen all over the world daily. I believe most of those would be illegal possession of bombs? Second, this incidnet has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment and the concept of the right to keep and bear arms was not put in place simply because Americans in the redneck states like to hunt. It's put in place as a pillar of freedom, a preservation of a fundamental right known as life. Self preservation is a cornerstone of the US constitution, hence the words, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as found within our Declaration of Independence. Notice how "life" is before "liberty"? The founder of this country wanted to make sure that people may be able to protect themselves, not from the citizens of the country, but from the government itself. Taking a lesson from history, the first thing Hilter did was outlaw the possession of individual arms. Therefore the government was the only place guns could be owned and used. That screws up the level playing field, because in the event there is a horrible or corrupt government, a rebellion would be thwarted immediately, since one party has guns and the other would be throwing rocks. This is a check and balance that should be in place and is not obsolete in the 200+ years of US history. Isn't it ironic how the Supreme Court has always upheld the 2nd Amendment? The reason why this incident is not a 2nd Amendment issue is that the 2nd Amendment did not cause these killings. It was a lunatic that planned extensively to kill, and then executed his killings. It's not the 2nd Amendment that needs limiting, it's the state gun sale laws that should perhaps be updated to provide more strict scrutiny in cases where people are buying semi-automatic rifles. And please don't confuse the states ability to form a militia to protect the state with an individuals right to bear arms. Two very distinct concepts. Lastly, amending the US Contitution is a very easy process. However, when something is this paramount to the foundation and preservation of our country, the 2nd Amendment is not going to be taken out of the Constitution. State laws can be modified or put in place to control gun sale activities.
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Phenethylamine
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Joined: 31 May 2011 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2046 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 9:35pm |
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f*** YEAH MURRIKA
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-DaGoN-
Godlike Member
I've got a bucket on me head!!! Joined: 08 Apr 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1683 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 9:53pm |
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Well this discussion went away from the actual Colorado incident.. let's not stick to that only
And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the right to bear arms go hand in hand with the right of a militia to secure the free state ? Those are the words, the right to bear arms is legit because you need it for a militia to secure the freedom And the comparison to Hitler is correct, but that is if you're facing a dictatorship or other corrupt state forms. It's obviously no problem in modern democracies
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B-B-BucKetHe4D !
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Pinnacle
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Joined: 14 Dec 2008 Location: Dogtown, CA Online Status: Offline Posts: 2510 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 10:18pm |
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No. One is a collective right afforded to a state to form a group of individuals to protect. The other is an indiviudal right. Two very distinct concepts. Most people outside of the US don't realize that there are three distinct free bodies at play in the US - Federal Government, State Government and Citizens. Local governments are incorporated by the States. Therefore, it's very important to distinguish where the right or capability lies. Also, please don't confuse a person's right to keep and bear arms with sale of guns. One allows a right, the other regulates the transaction of guns. Again, very distinct. The US Consitution is not a document that regulates transactions. That was originally the power given to the States and the Federal Government uses the Commerce Clause to stick it's nose into it. Transactions are regulated under State and Federal law. Therefore, I'm for limitation placed on transactions or purchases of guns, put not a limitation on an enumerated right. Lastly, you have to analyze this from a philosphical standpoint. Most people say that if we make guns illegal, the incidents of kills will decrease. Ok, I got it. But the other side of that argument is not truly the other side to that arguement. The true alternative argument is not that by people having guns, less people will be killed. The arguement is two fold. First people in general should not be limited in their freedom to "life, liberty and the pursuit to happiness.". Therefore, any limitation on their fundamental rights is a Consitutional infrigement. However, the second part to this is that people should have the "right" to protect themselves. This does not mean that people should all have guns, but have the ability to bear arms when there is a need. It's a non-limiting factor, not a limiting one. The framers of the Consitution wanted to make sure there was an expansion of power afforded to the citizens to make sure large government does not turn into a dictatorship. The sale or purchase of guns was never addressed. Why is that? Because this amendment is not about owning guns. It's about protection. Armarment does not mean guns. If we were to change the 2nd Amendment, we would be limiting our ability to protect ourselves.
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TuNA FISh
Team QnL
QnL Captain Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Location: Bham, Alabama Online Status: Offline Posts: 2994 |
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Posted: 27 Jul 2012 at 11:52pm |
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I read an article today on the sciencedaily app and you people might find it VERY interesting.... You know the 3d printer? Someone literally "printed" out a working .22 caliber pistol that he shot over 200 rounds with at a shooting range testing it out then fed the printer $30 worth of plastic and made a working AR-15 assault rifle.... That's something anyone could do btw
Edit: I meant the PopSci app XD. Sciencedaily.com is a great site though |
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The sun was high and so was I
- Best Coast psn: HardhatTuna XBL: Tuna is QnL |
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HanFei
Team KmA
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 2:06am |
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In DC vs Heller, the 2nd Amendment is interpreted to protect an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. http://www.guncite.com/heller.pdf |
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-DaGoN-
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I've got a bucket on me head!!! Joined: 08 Apr 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1683 |
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 7:28am |
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Well okay, I don't see how the 2nd Amendment mentions self-defense within the home, it's clearly about freedom of the state. ("A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state,..")
I'd like to understand that interpretation, but I'm not exactly feeling like reading through 44 pages haha
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B-B-BucKetHe4D !
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Pinnacle
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 9:04am |
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Dagon, The 2nd Amendment States the following: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" Imagine that one sentence has been the cornerstone of the US Constitution since day one and has been upheld in favor of US citizens many times over. There are three interpretations of the 2nd Amendment:
DC vs. Heller basically took the third interpretation and stated that a person's right to keep and bear arms is unconnected with services of a militia. Therefore, the Supreme Court stated that there a two very distinct rights in the second amendment as follows: 1. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, shall not be infringed. [Purpose and meaning is that States are sovereign from the US Federal Government] and 2. The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. [Purpose and meaning is that an individual has the right to keep and bear arms for protection] Simple as that.
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-DaGoN-
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I've got a bucket on me head!!! Joined: 08 Apr 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1683 |
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 9:29am |
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This is what always has bugged me about jurisdiction. The author of those texts must have meant the one objective truth, following the consent of the people. But they still can be interpreted in any other way, leaving many subjective truths and not even closely one, the way it should be..
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B-B-BucKetHe4D !
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
Team Deep
TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 9:35am |
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@ Seph: Lol im semi-serious but because I want to understand ur love of guns in society and idgi cept for hunting. Sry man but CS has a point - guns kill ppl and USA is pro-guns for citizens because its their constitutional right.
@ Pin: tnx man for the reply. K so the 2nd Amendment balances the scales between the state and the ppl and the right to bear arms is for personal protection in the homes. I cant think of incidents in recent memory where th state troops have been called in to control civil unrest. I think in the sixties when you had mass protests for civil rights movements and Vietnam they were but idk really. Point 1 - realistically tho how effective would this be pistols, shotguns and semi - automatics against armed troops and armoured vehicles? Guns vs rocks? might as well be. How effective is this 'right to bear arms'? I mean if there has been little incidents arising its either a very good law keeping the state in check or a needless one cos it does nothing and isnt needed. Point 2 - You dont need guns to protect yourselves and the more guns in society, the more gun related incidents, gun deaths, mass shootings. It doesnt promote a lawful society rather it blurs the boundaries and gives power to derranged sociopaths, hate groups and criminals. Point 3 - Gun related incidents like Colorado are more prevalent than 'one-off, isolated' as you mentioned. It is nearer an annual total of 20 incidents/year according to the Brady campaign http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/major-shootings.pdf And here's a list of infamous incidents that goes back to the 60's (and doesnt mention Waco or Brenda Ann Spencer - the girl who was bored of mondays so decided to liven things up by shooting kids with the semi automatic rifle her dad bought her for her birthday (she wanted a radio!).
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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chisox666
Team iAM
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Location: Chicago burbs Online Status: Offline Posts: 463 |
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 12:38pm |
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy - it's important to make the proper distinction between the types of shootings that the Brady Campaign has chosen to highlight. Before I get into my explanation, here is a little conversation between myself and a Hispanic co-worker which exemplifies my future point.
Him: "What the f*ck is up with all you crazy white people and shooting lots of people man?" Then, in a whiny white-boy voice, "Uhhhh, I'm depressed, my parents don't love me enough, I was picked on in school, I lost my job..." Sniffle, sniffle.... "I'm going to make them pay!" And then he pretends like he is holding a rifle. Me: Now it's time for my impersonation. "Hey vato, let's go blast that fool Hector meng. That little b!tch threw down the crown when I was driving past with my mom yo! Let's go get that mofo!" Then twenty minutes later, "Oh sh!t homes, you blasted the little girl by mistake!" Other guy says, "She shouldn't have been in the way meng!" Then he laughs and nods his head in a slightly nervous manner. We both know the impersonations are truthful to some extent. Many of the incidents the Brady Campaign highlights are inner-city shootings, and no restrictive gun law in the world is going to stop them. Maybe tough penalties would help deter some violence, but that is up for debate. The Aurora shooting was driven by insanity, whereas city shootings are driven by a way of life. It's important to separate the two types, because they require a different level of understanding. Inner city violence is a different breed of mayhem compared to other violence. It can't be stopped. Maybe displaced or slowed down at times, but never stopped. |
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get fragged
Misery Index - Heirs To Thievery |
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
Team Deep
TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Posted: 28 Jul 2012 at 2:32pm |
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chissox I know you're pro guns and you always make your point clear. I read the dialog and even added accents to you and your co-worker lol. Agreed, inner city violence is different to mass shootings like Aurora where the guy was clearly unhinged. However if you click on the hyperlinks u will see the info is based entirely on these mass shootings NOT gun on gun crimes, single incidents, gang related shootings. It doesnt mean that where u have inner cities you have widespread gun violence else this would be true of London, Berlin, Paris, Rome too (anywhere where ther is inner city population rivalry or crime). I dont even think Toronto or Montreal has a gun problem comparable with cities in the US of the same magnitude or mix (probably not even half as bad). In UK we have had 3 incidents like this in 25-30 years! Our police officers dont carry guns we have special armed response units for armed crimes. The difference is the amount of guns and the attitude to guns in society. The more guns the more gun related incidents. This includes mass shootings! Give a derranged citizen access to a gun and he is now a danger to society, a more efficient killer if ever he intended to kill in the 1st place. All the more reason to restrict or outlaw guns imo. Ask yourself why you dont hear of incidents like this in other developed nations. And if you do they probably have the same attitude to guns as USA! Im not bashing your country just trying to understand the resistance to tighter gun control or outlawing of guns.
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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chisox666
Team iAM
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Location: Chicago burbs Online Status: Offline Posts: 463 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 2012 at 1:01am |
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I only clicked on the Brady campaign link and briefly looked at some of the incidents. Many of the shootings listed there are gang related. I will have to check out the other link. |
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get fragged
Misery Index - Heirs To Thievery |
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
Team Deep
TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Posted: 29 Jul 2012 at 4:34am |
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Yes some are gang related but the majority isn’t. Below
are some random examples from the pdf file. All are from this year. Maybe you
guys stateside can confirm if they are true but I would think if they simply
made stuff like this up pro-gun campaigners would easily discredit them using
the internet. I’m sure with a little effort I could trace the sources myself but
I’m too lazy atm lol. Anyway it seems more of a problem than simply an isolated
incident. No other western countries have gun crimes and mass shootings on a
level anywhere near that of the US. Britain is now making in-roads tho, with
gun incidents and killings but mass shootings afaik its 3 incidents in 25-30
years.
Auburn, AL 06/09/2012
A 22 year old man opened fire at University Heights
apartments off West Longleaf Drive. The shooting left three men dead, including
two former Auburn University football players, and three others wounded. (Manhunt on for suspect in Auburn mass
shooting, Dothan Eagle, June 10 2012)
A 16-year-old boy is in custody and suspected of
opening fire after an NBA game on Monday, injuring eight people. Three of the
people shot were bystanders, while five had been involved in the group clashes,
which revolved around "high school, girls-and-boys stuff". Police say
(16-year-old shot eight outside NBA game, Chicago Tribune, May 23 2012)
Seattle, WA 05/30/2012
40-year-old Ian Stawicki entered a Seattle cafe on
Wednesday and opened fire, killing four people. He then left Cafe Racer, killing
another person during a carjacking before taking his own life. (Seattle Mass
Shooting Latest by a Concealed Handgun Permit Holder, Huffington post, June 1
2012)
GILBERT, AZ 05/01/2012
Four people killed by a former neo-Nazi before he
turned the gun on himself. The killer shot and killed his girlfriend and three
others, including a toddler as a result of a domestic dispute. (Armored gunman,
4 people dead in Arizona shooting, msnbc, May 2, 2012)
Oakland, CA 04/02/2012
Seven people were killed and three others wounded in a shooting rampage Monday at an Asian religious vocational school in east Oakland; police later detained the suspected gunman. (7 Dead, 3 Wounded In Shooting At Oakland Religious School; Gunman In Custody CBS San Francisco, April 2 2012) |
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
Team Deep
TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 11:29am |
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Not mocking u guys but.... Wisconsin Sikh temple gunman named as Wade Michael Page |
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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ax412
Team iAM
Duel Champ Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Cali Online Status: Offline Posts: 4833 |
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Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 11:31am |
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I would say guys like him might be easier to prevent though. Thank God for the cop there.
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
Team Deep
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Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 5:35pm |
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A REAL HERO 4 SURE!
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy
Team Deep
TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Posted: 06 Aug 2012 at 5:35pm |
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A true hero
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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