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The problem of evil
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Ether404 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Oct 2011 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by Heavenly_tRiNiTy

Originally posted by Ether404

Originally posted by ax412

Originally posted by TX2k7

phant....
you make a good point, and taking it one step further, we could say, if God were to destroy evil, it would be in violation of his omnibenevolent nature by no longer allowing us the freedom to choose, we are now all bound to do good by God's design. i ask you tho, if God truly is omniscient & omnipotent, existing outside of time & space (an eternal being) then he would see & know all events past, present and future all at once. if he knows all possible outcomes of what could/will happen...do we really have free will?
that my friend I'm not sure I can answer. I would believe so.
Its a catch-22
God is sovereign and knows the beginning from the end, yet we have a free will. (he added the variables which would in a sense influence our decisions) yet we still choose.

Its not something one can truly comprehend.

then why does he torment?
the question is why do you think or are u sure he is the tormentor? He gave man free will - man chooses his own path. Why create us at all? if you accept God and the notion that he made us in his own image then it explains why we are individuals each equipped with the tools to shape their lives. 
@ Tuna Morals existed before formal religions as did spirituality, but yes religion especially monostheism represents a major shift in human development. Perhaps is more accurate to say religion gave morality more authority.

explain this.  if he gave us free will, then what about our fate?  isn't that written in stone and cannot be changed?  what about little simple signs?  does he give them to remind you/torment you on past events/giving hints at the future?   it doesn't seem he does these out of love dude.  it seems he wants to remind you of things that have long since past...a torment...
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warfare View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TX2k7

ok, warfare...

well the thing is you cannot prove/disprove God's existence with absolute certainty, the arguments/counter arguments really can only say, 'if this is the case, it is reasonable that this diety exists...or does not exist'

yes the religious experience on the whole is very emotional, but to gain better insight & understanding of God and his nature through logic is not irrational. even theists from the beginning have used logical arguments to argue in favor of God and, in certain arguments, have done a damn good job at it too.

u hold a very dualistic view, and what i took out of it was you feel evil exists separate of God? in such a case i would ask then, is God unable to destroy evil? would this not seem to suggest there are some things God cannot do? also, if evil exists outside of God, then he did not create everything?
 
Perhaps I misunderstood the question, but let me clarify what I believe you asked and then my answer.
 
In your initial post you say "...the existence of evil has been regarded as the most potent rational objection to theistic belief...".  You then give examples of the two main arguments for this disbelief: The Logical Problem and The Evidential Problem, which essentially says God and Evil cannot logically coexist.  And finally, the conclusion you give is - There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
 
 
So correct me if I misunderstood but you are looking for a rebuttal to this conclusion, right?  In other words, you are seeking a counter-argument that would refute the conclusion that "there is no God".
 
My answer is two-fold:
1.  First, the question itself is rigged, so to speak. One cannot, with scientific proof, prove or disprove the existence of God in a wholly rational, logical, scientific way because humanity's belief in such a God or Gods is entirely subjective.  (All this leads to is endless talking in circles)
 
2.  However, if you absolutely insist on trying to make this argument (I suppose your teacher WILL insist Smile), then it seems to me there is (at least) one reality-based way of doing so. 
 
 Since the crux of the argument Against rests on the assertion that it is impossible for there to be a dual-existence of God and Evil, you could show that this quality of duality is, in fact, seen everywhere throughout our natural world.  From the tiniest atomic particle to the endless cosmos, duality and seeming contradiction, symmetry, and balance are fundamental to the universe.  I gave a few examples of this seeming contradiction : matter-antimatter, energy/dark energy, positive/negative atomic particles.    Duality is consistent and compatible with many mysterious phenomena in our universe so the dual nature of Good and Evil is entirely compatible with this fundamental fact of life.
 
 
So, to answer your last three questions - if, IF you believe what I just told you then to be consistent the answer is NO God cannot destroy evil, He cannot do everything, and  He did not create everything.  God would be to the Devil what matter is to antimatter, what negative is to positive, etc.  He would be in essence, the naturally existing counter-part to his opposite, the Devil. And, the Devil would be, literally, the anti-christ LOL
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by Ether404

Originally posted by Heavenly_tRiNiTy

Originally posted by Ether404

Originally posted by ax412

Originally posted by TX2k7

phant....
you make a good point, and taking it one step further, we could say, if God were to destroy evil, it would be in violation of his omnibenevolent nature by no longer allowing us the freedom to choose, we are now all bound to do good by God's design. i ask you tho, if God truly is omniscient & omnipotent, existing outside of time & space (an eternal being) then he would see & know all events past, present and future all at once. if he knows all possible outcomes of what could/will happen...do we really have free will?
that my friend I'm not sure I can answer. I would believe so.
Its a catch-22
God is sovereign and knows the beginning from the end, yet we have a free will. (he added the variables which would in a sense influence our decisions) yet we still choose.

Its not something one can truly comprehend.

then why does he torment?
the question is why do you think or are u sure he is the tormentor? He gave man free will - man chooses his own path. Why create us at all? if you accept God and the notion that he made us in his own image then it explains why we are individuals each equipped with the tools to shape their lives. 
@ Tuna Morals existed before formal religions as did spirituality, but yes religion especially monostheism represents a major shift in human development. Perhaps is more accurate to say religion gave morality more authority.

explain this.  if he gave us free will, then what about our fate?  isn't that written in stone and cannot be changed?  what about little simple signs?  does he give them to remind you/torment you on past events/giving hints at the future?   it doesn't seem he does these out of love dude.  it seems he wants to remind you of things that have long since past...a torment...
k i'll do my best but its 0215 and my brain is numb. Free will is bestowed on man but man is not God man is a mortal being. The only things written in stone afaik is birth, death and the afterlife. Hence your fate is in your own hands, live as God intended and your fate will be to enjoy the fruits of your labour in heaven - thats the choice, the way, the light and the truth! The future. The fate you are talking of is this an earthly one?
Whilst youre earthbound im pretty sure God doesnt send us messages and tourment us but someone else whose agenda is for us to reject God might Evil Smile Again you need to give me specifics on the simple signs, past events hinting at the future and tourments. I cant answer what I dont understand but he tells you of the future he has prepared for us all "out of love". Maybe the tourment comes through temptation, disobedience and a lack of discipline - truly universal human frailties. But im second guessing you here m8
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Originally posted by warfare

Originally posted by TX2k7

ok, warfare...

well the thing is you cannot prove/disprove God's existence with absolute certainty, the arguments/counter arguments really can only say, 'if this is the case, it is reasonable that this diety exists...or does not exist'

yes the religious experience on the whole is very emotional, but to gain better insight & understanding of God and his nature through logic is not irrational. even theists from the beginning have used logical arguments to argue in favor of God and, in certain arguments, have done a damn good job at it too.

u hold a very dualistic view, and what i took out of it was you feel evil exists separate of God? in such a case i would ask then, is God unable to destroy evil? would this not seem to suggest there are some things God cannot do? also, if evil exists outside of God, then he did not create everything?
 
Perhaps I misunderstood the question, but let me clarify what I believe you asked and then my answer.
 
In your initial post you say "...the existence of evil has been regarded as the most potent rational objection to theistic belief...".  You then give examples of the two main arguments for this disbelief: The Logical Problem and The Evidential Problem, which essentially says God and Evil cannot logically coexist.  And finally, the conclusion you give is - There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
 
So correct me if I misunderstood but you are looking for a rebuttal to this conclusion, right?  In other words, you are seeking a counter-argument that would refute the conclusion that "there is no God".
 
My answer is two-fold:
1.  First, the question itself is rigged, so to speak. One cannot, with scientific proof, prove or disprove the existence of God in a wholly rational, logical, scientific way because humanity's belief in such a God or Gods is entirely subjective.  (All this leads to is endless talking in circles)
 
2.  However, if you absolutely insist on trying to make this argument (I suppose your teacher WILL insist Smile), then it seems to me there is (at least) one reality-based way of doing so. 
 
 Since the crux of the argument Against rests on the assertion that it is impossible for there to be a dual-existence of God and Evil, you could show that this quality of duality is, in fact, seen everywhere throughout our natural world.  From the tiniest atomic particle to the endless cosmos, duality and seeming contradiction, symmetry, and balance are fundamental to the universe.  I gave a few examples of this seeming contradiction : matter-antimatter, energy/dark energy, positive/negative atomic particles.    Duality is consistent and compatible with many mysterious phenomena in our universe so the dual nature of Good and Evil is entirely compatible with this fundamental fact of life.
 
An empirical approach to a subjective topic, indeed! The natural observed world is better than evidence based on the weight of opinions according to scientific thinking so you would think its a good approach except some things have a neutral state. But this is still consistent with the good and evil theme.
 
 
 
 
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Hey TX2k7. Not sure if your finished with your paper (probably are done with it by now). But this man is Ravi Zacharias. He is about the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to proving the point of what evil is and where it originates from. Keep in mind when the question of Good and Evil is mentioned. Is always has to do about a PERSON or PERSON'S. If you want to chat I can give you some pointers or answer some questions of yours the best I can. I study stuff like this on my own time. So if you ever want to start up a chat room and discuss this matter feel free.
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what a load of horse sh1t!
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Originally posted by ut3lve

what a load of horse sh1t!

Stop talking about your family like that. 
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Originally posted by danjel3+5

Originally posted by ut3lve

what a load of horse sh1t!
Stop talking about your family like that. 
broken record! waste of time
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being evil is good, so whats the problem? jkEvil Smile
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idk but i'd say the problem is in the payback! ask Hitler, Bin Laden, Saddam and Gaddaffi Wink
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hitler didnt get pay'd back hard enough though
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Originally posted by XxXDEATHXxX101

hitler didnt get pay'd back hard enough though
lol 2 true! He was a coward who took the cowards way out. So lets just say he indebted to some +30 million which means he couldnt pay the ferryman ...hopefully 
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Just to take another kind of view on this:
in a way, the concept of good and evil is a dualistic  way to divide things around  an observer.
 
As mr. Zacharias in the previous video gave the example of the boy and a father: the father pointed another country in sincere belief that it was evil country full of evil people and they should be killed. On that another country's hill same time there could be a son and father pointing back to them, saying same things - so which country or people would be evil and which would be the good?
 
To make a bit more harsh example,  in world war I, there has been flies, maggots and rats feasting on millions of corpses on the killing fields. And for them it may have been a paradise on earth - for human kind it was quite the oppsosite. The very place and time was same for both  - it's just about the state of mind and being.
 
I bet Jesus Christ, Mother Theresa or Gandhi stomped on some bugs during their lives - in bugs point of view their feet were the world's ending ( oh, I loved to continue with this LOL )
 
Now, one could say that Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden etc. monstrous persons in history, are persons who were pure evil. One could also suggest, that they more or less were like those fathers& sons, who's were exposed to causes and conditions that formed their minds to think and make decisions they.. made.
 
When a mind is first subjected to ignorance, (as that father's son on the previous video), then aversion and hate follows. This we tend to label as "evil" or "good", depending on which side of the border we stand.
 
My point here is not to deny or challenge the concept of good&evil stated in christian context (which I believe in here it's mostly spoken), just bring out another view of the matter.
 
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Originally posted by ax412

If God were to oust evil. Then free will would be abolished.
Evil can only exist because of good.

Sorry for pulling this thread out of the ashes. I assume your paper is done and hope you did well.

The problem of evil does not need to be satisfied by evil derived from free will. Natural evils work just as well, since God could have created a world with free will buy without Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Floods, AIDs, etcetera.
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Originally posted by HanFei

Originally posted by ax412

If God were to oust evil. Then free will would be abolished.
Evil can only exist because of good.

Sorry for pulling this thread out of the ashes. I assume your paper is done and hope you did well.

The problem of evil does not need to be satisfied by evil derived from free will. Natural evils work just as well, since God could have created a world with free will buy without Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Floods, AIDs, etcetera.
wow you just took religion and natural disasters an think they are really related?  then again i got to listen to a religious people tell me that the world is not 6.5 billion years old and things like that.  nature is not associated with evil,  thats like saying its evil every time it rains.  you are talking about natural processes not evil.  as for AIDS its not any different than other diseases or bacteria existing outta the primal pool of sludge that created life on the planet.  my father is extremely religious yet he would never compair earthquakes nor does he think the world is only 9,000 years old.  everyone is a product of there enviorment... meaning you believe what you are raised to believe.  thats why the little arabic kid grows up to be a car bomber.  was he born evil?  or just raised to be a evil person?  choices only go so far and most people think they made choices and really are only a cut and paste product of where they grew up.  yet dont get me wrong i am not saying im right nor you are wrong cause everyone has there own thoughts and beliefs.  just dont see how plant life, bacteria, insects/animals, weather or viruses have any real connection to "EVIL" tho they all have some really nasty things that can kill, very differnt than being evil.   
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Going thru non theist door. Good (God/s) and Evil (Devil) is a concept of Human, there is no good or evil. Human is a pack/clan/unit oriented animal with a complicated thought process, as such we needed to set up rules of what is and isn't acceptable behavior within the group. Some where along the line the idea of a deity came about and has since been synonymous with good(dont want to think to much into it so i'll leave it at that). Good cannot exist without evil and vice versa, simply because we cannot define one without the other, plus i  like Warfare's second to last paragraph...u look for it. What it really comes down to is Morals which are embedded in us by society. As Kuppy Kake(certainly has a way with words XP) basically put it, we are a product of where we grew up, whether we were raised by 2 parents, 1 parent, other family(blood related or foster), or on our own, we live studying society and grasp our own concepts of what is acceptable.
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