The problem of evil |
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Tacote_del_Orno ![]() Team Phoenyx ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Location: Kansas City, MO Online Status: Offline Posts: 198 |
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Going thru non theist door. Good (God/s) and Evil (Devil) is a concept of Human, there is no good or evil. Human is a pack/clan/unit oriented animal with a complicated thought process, as such we needed to set up rules of what is and isn't acceptable behavior within the group. Some where along the line the idea of a deity came about and has since been synonymous with good(dont want to think to much into it so i'll leave it at that). Good cannot exist without evil and vice versa, simply because we cannot define one without the other, plus i like Warfare's second to last paragraph...u look for it. What it really comes down to is Morals which are embedded in us by society. As Kuppy Kake(certainly has a way with words XP) basically put it, we are a product of where we grew up, whether we were raised by 2 parents, 1 parent, other family(blood related or foster), or on our own, we live studying society and grasp our own concepts of what is acceptable.
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lDEATHl-MACHINE ![]() Team iAM ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 2009 Location: Right by JP's Online Status: Offline Posts: 1911 |
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I am an Exit!psn KuPcAKeDESTR0YER.NoTh1nG__FaCe.Y1NsSeVeRiTy.SuM_RANDOMN008. Portal sits deep within the eye. The eye of Y1NsSeVeRiTy rewards understanding.XBLgametag lDEATHl MACHINE
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HanFei ![]() Team KmA ![]() ![]() Joined: 26 Apr 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 798 |
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Sorry for pulling this thread out of the ashes. I assume your paper is done and hope you did well. The problem of evil does not need to be satisfied by evil derived from free will. Natural evils work just as well, since God could have created a world with free will buy without Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Floods, AIDs, etcetera. |
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summ3rblink ![]() Ultra Member ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Mar 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 677 |
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Just to take another kind of view on this:
in a way, the concept of good and evil is a dualistic way to divide things around an observer.
As mr. Zacharias in the previous video gave the example of the boy and a father: the father pointed another country in sincere belief that it was evil country full of evil people and they should be killed. On that another country's hill same time there could be a son and father pointing back to them, saying same things - so which country or people would be evil and which would be the good?
To make a bit more harsh example, in world war I, there has been flies, maggots and rats feasting on millions of corpses on the killing fields. And for them it may have been a paradise on earth - for human kind it was quite the oppsosite. The very place and time was same for both - it's just about the state of mind and being.
I bet Jesus Christ, Mother Theresa or Gandhi stomped on some bugs during their lives - in bugs point of view their feet were the world's ending ( oh, I loved to continue with this
![]() Now, one could say that Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden etc. monstrous persons in history, are persons who were pure evil. One could also suggest, that they more or less were like those fathers& sons, who's were exposed to causes and conditions that formed their minds to think and make decisions they.. made.
When a mind is first subjected to ignorance, (as that father's son on the previous video), then aversion and hate follows. This we tend to label as "evil" or "good", depending on which side of the border we stand.
My point here is not to deny or challenge the concept of good&evil stated in christian context (which I believe in here it's mostly spoken), just bring out another view of the matter.
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy ![]() Team Deep ![]() ![]() TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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lol 2 true! He was a coward who took the cowards way out. So lets just say he indebted to some +30 million which means he couldnt pay the ferryman ...hopefully
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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lDEATHl-MACHINE ![]() Team iAM ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 2009 Location: Right by JP's Online Status: Offline Posts: 1911 |
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hitler didnt get pay'd back hard enough though
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I am an Exit!psn KuPcAKeDESTR0YER.NoTh1nG__FaCe.Y1NsSeVeRiTy.SuM_RANDOMN008. Portal sits deep within the eye. The eye of Y1NsSeVeRiTy rewards understanding.XBLgametag lDEATHl MACHINE
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy ![]() Team Deep ![]() ![]() TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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idk but i'd say the problem is in the payback! ask Hitler, Bin Laden, Saddam and Gaddaffi
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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lDEATHl-MACHINE ![]() Team iAM ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 2009 Location: Right by JP's Online Status: Offline Posts: 1911 |
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being evil is good, so whats the problem? jk
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I am an Exit!psn KuPcAKeDESTR0YER.NoTh1nG__FaCe.Y1NsSeVeRiTy.SuM_RANDOMN008. Portal sits deep within the eye. The eye of Y1NsSeVeRiTy rewards understanding.XBLgametag lDEATHl MACHINE
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ut3lve ![]() Godlike Member ![]() Joined: 23 Jul 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1038 |
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danjel3+5 ![]() Godlike Member ![]() Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 953 |
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Stop talking about your family like that.
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ut3lve ![]() Godlike Member ![]() Joined: 23 Jul 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1038 |
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what a load of horse sh1t!
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Helscream ![]() Team iAM ![]() ![]() Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Location: Dallas,TX Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
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Hey TX2k7. Not sure if your finished with your paper (probably are done with it by now). But this man is Ravi Zacharias. He is about the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to proving the point of what evil is and where it originates from. Keep in mind when the question of Good and Evil is mentioned. Is always has to do about a PERSON or PERSON'S. If you want to chat I can give you some pointers or answer some questions of yours the best I can. I study stuff like this on my own time. So if you ever want to start up a chat room and discuss this matter feel free. |
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy ![]() Team Deep ![]() ![]() TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy ![]() Team Deep ![]() ![]() TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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k i'll do my best but its 0215 and my brain is numb. Free will is bestowed on man but man is not God man is a mortal being. The only things written in stone afaik is birth, death and the afterlife. Hence your fate is in your own hands, live as God intended and your fate will be to enjoy the fruits of your labour in heaven - thats the choice, the way, the light and the truth! The future. The fate you are talking of is this an earthly one? Whilst youre earthbound im pretty sure God doesnt send us messages and tourment us but someone else whose agenda is for us to reject God might
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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warfare ![]() Ultra Member ![]() Joined: 29 Sep 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 326 |
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Perhaps I misunderstood the question, but let me clarify what I believe you asked and then my answer.
In your initial post you say "...the existence of evil has been regarded as the most potent rational objection to theistic belief...". You then give examples of the two main arguments for this disbelief: The Logical Problem and The Evidential Problem, which essentially says God and Evil cannot logically coexist. And finally, the conclusion you give is - There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
So correct me if I misunderstood but you are looking for a rebuttal to this conclusion, right? In other words, you are seeking a counter-argument that would refute the conclusion that "there is no God".
My answer is two-fold:
1. First, the question itself is rigged, so to speak. One cannot, with scientific proof, prove or disprove the existence of God in a wholly rational, logical, scientific way because humanity's belief in such a God or Gods is entirely subjective. (All this leads to is endless talking in circles)
2. However, if you absolutely insist on trying to make this argument (I suppose your teacher WILL insist
![]() Since the crux of the argument Against rests on the assertion that it is impossible for there to be a dual-existence of God and Evil, you could show that this quality of duality is, in fact, seen everywhere throughout our natural world. From the tiniest atomic particle to the endless cosmos, duality and seeming contradiction, symmetry, and balance are fundamental to the universe. I gave a few examples of this seeming contradiction : matter-antimatter, energy/dark energy, positive/negative atomic particles. Duality is consistent and compatible with many mysterious phenomena in our universe so the dual nature of Good and Evil is entirely compatible with this fundamental fact of life.
So, to answer your last three questions - if, IF you believe what I just told you then to be consistent the answer is NO God cannot destroy evil, He cannot do everything, and He did not create everything. God would be to the Devil what matter is to antimatter, what negative is to positive, etc. He would be in essence, the naturally existing counter-part to his opposite, the Devil. And, the Devil would be, literally, the anti-christ
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Do you realize that in about forty years, we'll have millions of old ladies running around with tatoos and pierced navels? O.o
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Ether404 ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() The Jackhammer Joined: 20 Feb 2009 Location: Freaking Jersey Online Status: Offline Posts: 1294 |
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explain this. if he gave us free will, then what about our fate? isn't that written in stone and cannot be changed? what about little simple signs? does he give them to remind you/torment you on past events/giving hints at the future? it doesn't seem he does these out of love dude. it seems he wants to remind you of things that have long since past...a torment...
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If Gravity is a "P" and the Sun is an "H", it makes a FFFFFFF.
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy ![]() Team Deep ![]() ![]() TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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the question is why do you think or are u sure he is the tormentor? He gave man free will - man chooses his own path. Why create us at all? if you accept God and the notion that he made us in his own image then it explains why we are individuals each equipped with the tools to shape their lives. @ Tuna Morals existed before formal religions as did spirituality, but yes religion especially monostheism represents a major shift in human development. Perhaps is more accurate to say religion gave morality more authority.
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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Ether404 ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() The Jackhammer Joined: 20 Feb 2009 Location: Freaking Jersey Online Status: Offline Posts: 1294 |
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then why does he torment?
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If Gravity is a "P" and the Sun is an "H", it makes a FFFFFFF.
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ax412 ![]() Team iAM ![]() ![]() Duel Champ Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Location: Cali Online Status: Offline Posts: 4833 |
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Its a catch-22 God is sovereign and knows the beginning from the end, yet we have a free will. (he added the variables which would in a sense influence our decisions) yet we still choose. Its not something one can truly comprehend. |
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TuNA FISh ![]() Team QnL ![]() ![]() QnL Captain Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Location: Bham, Alabama Online Status: Offline Posts: 2994 |
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i agree with most of what you said. here are my thoughts true "evil" doesn't exist. people doing "evil" is to better themselves in one way or another. having intelligence is the reason why we can distinguish what's right and what's wrong. also, you have to look at the environment. we learn right from wrong when we are toddlers so people born in the congo or thailand have a totally different version of what's right and what's wrong. that's when you get to lesser and greater evils. you have to rule out mental illnesses from this debate. even though society sees serial killers as being evil, they clearly have a mental illness that prevents them from functioning in society. religion was a way for our ancestors to agree on morals and to explain why we exist. you can say that the fear of death is what helped us evolve and ultimately create religion in the first place. religion was the first intelligent thing the human race did. if it wasn't for religion then morals wouldn't exist therefore villages, cities, and countries wouldn't have existed. religion isn't immune to "evil" and we can look at history as a reference.
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The sun was high and so was I
- Best Coast psn: HardhatTuna XBL: Tuna is QnL |
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Heavenly_tRiNiTy ![]() Team Deep ![]() ![]() TEA TIME!!! Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2101 |
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Aqua u stole my post (apart from the bitter rage after lol). TX this is a huge topic area m8 ultimately your asking if God exists? and if he does why does he allow evil (human suffering/cruelty) to exist too? Briefly my answer would be a combination of Aquas last post as in what is Gods position? Does he have full control or does he also play by the rules of the universe? In Phant's I will agree strongly that Gods gift to man is free will - choice. Obediance comes from fear, respect, subordinance but choice (to choose the path of God comes from love). I can think of several reasons to add to the free will argument but Warfare said something very worthwhile, you should research this for yourself. You have posed a humanistic question and attempting to answer it empirically (scientific evidence, what is observed and predicted etc) which means u cannot possibly give the God exists and God is Good a fair shake. Anecdotal evidence - eg my friend was devoutly religious but died an angonising death so God doesnt care, doesnt love us - is easy to find but hard to handle in an unbiased way.
PS u seem to be making assumptions about God and his agenda but I think your stirring the pot to see if anything interesting floats to the surface. But if I were in your shoes I would consider asking myself the question - what is the question that im attempting to answer.
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Cos I'm Wonderman...I'll take that knife and shove it up your a$$!
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Aquaknot ![]() Godlike Member ![]() ![]() Wheres my sock?! Joined: 22 Feb 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 778 |
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I think that before you can debate the duties and responsibilities of God, one should first understand how God came to be. Only when armed with this knowledge would one understand the true nature of God and be better prepared to discuss his motives, actions or inaction. Then, we should determine who decided that God is
Who decided it is Gods responsibility for the good and bad in the world? Isn't it true that where each of us finds ourselves today is nothing more than the sum of the decisions we made along the way? Is that not free will? Omnipotent (all powerful) means that all things are possible for this entity. If you can imagine it, it can be done. Omniscient (all knowing) means God knew all things before they occurred. Benevolent means good and kind. Taken together, these attributes would seem to describe a perfect God that resulted in an imperfect creation. How is it possible for imperfection to come out of perfection? Did God miss something? Was this a lab experiment that went horribly wrong? Or, is it that in our own failings and innate desire to answer the question of "why?", we have created a one size fits all solution for ourselves? Creating something you know is doomed to fail, punishing your creation by killing them by the thousands when they fail (apparently on schedule), drowning them, burning them, killing their children, cutting them off from yourself and unleashing your worst enemy on them doesn't seem benevolent to me. Creating a final solution that involves becoming your own father, killing yourself and then offering redemption through telepathy to the dead son you created by sending your "spirit" in to a virgin simply makes no sense. Where is the benevolence in that? Where is the foresight? Where is the all powerful solution? I think we are looking for answers to questions we don't fully understand. Perhaps it is the premise of the question that is flawed? I just don't know. When our own knowledge and insight fails us, we look for someone or something to blame our troubles on. |
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A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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SIZZLE ![]() Team oOPS ![]() I'm your huckle berry Joined: 01 Jun 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1352 |
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simple answer - Pandora's box
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sHoCkD_Yo_aSs is a novice bot
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TX2k7 ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Requiescat In Pace Joined: 08 Nov 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340 |
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phant....
you make a good point, and taking it one step further, we could say, if God were to destroy evil, it would be in violation of his omnibenevolent nature by no longer allowing us the freedom to choose, we are now all bound to do good by God's design. i ask you tho, if God truly is omniscient & omnipotent, existing outside of time & space (an eternal being) then he would see & know all events past, present and future all at once. if he knows all possible outcomes of what could/will happen...do we really have free will? |
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TX2k7 ![]() Forum Moderator ![]() ![]() Requiescat In Pace Joined: 08 Nov 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340 |
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ok, warfare...
well the thing is you cannot prove/disprove God's existence with absolute certainty, the arguments/counter arguments really can only say, 'if this is the case, it is reasonable that this diety exists...or does not exist' yes the religious experience on the whole is very emotional, but to gain better insight & understanding of God and his nature through logic is not irrational. even theists from the beginning have used logical arguments to argue in favor of God and, in certain arguments, have done a damn good job at it too. u hold a very dualistic view, and what i took out of it was you feel evil exists separate of God? in such a case i would ask then, is God unable to destroy evil? would this not seem to suggest there are some things God cannot do? also, if evil exists outside of God, then he did not create everything? |
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